Anu Smalley

Transcript “

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  00:35

Who is Speaker: Anu Smalley?

Speaker: Anu Smalley  00:39

That’s the toughest question of all. Who is Anu Smalley? Wow, first question is stopping me.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  00:53

Maybe, what’s been your journey? I mean, like, how did you and like?

Speaker: Anu Smalley  00:57

Let me do that first. That may help identify who is Anu Smalley. So, I think my journey is where I started off as developer. And I went kicking and screaming into being a developer. I did not want to be in programming, but I got a job. Accidentally got a job as a programmer, I needed the job to pay bills. And 15 years later, I’m still in development. I ended up when I was leading an IT organization at a financial software company. So, I was the head of IT there, and it was just not what I wanted to do. So, I got completely, I decided I’m going to change my career. I went to an organization, a different organization, and my only ask to the recruiter was, the job must not be an IT focus job. That’s it. I do not want to be in IT.  Anything, great.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  01:54

Why? What happened? You know, as a developer and not wanting to be in IT.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  02:03

So, I never wanted to be a developer to begin with, right. I wanted to be more working with people and products. And that’s been my passion. I like helping you figure out what is it that you need, not build it. Somebody else can do the building. I want to help figure out what is it that you need. How do you use it? Why do you use it? That’s the curiosity in me. And as a developer, yes, initially it was really powerful building stuff. But then after a while, it was like, I don’t want to build stuff for people, I want to talk to the people who are using the stuff that I’m building or be there. But I didn’t know that there was such a thing called product ownership at that point. I was an IT person, right. I went from developer to project manager to IT. I was director of IT, and I headed up the IT organization. But it was just something missing for me, and it wasn’t, I knew I needed to get out and experience something different. So, I quit my job and took a massive pay cut, because I was head of IT and now, I went into this small organization that had a consulting arm. And they said, well, you know, your entire experience has been IT, so we won’t put you in IT, but we’ll put you in this place where you have to interact with IT. You understand them, you understand the language, it might be a good place. I’m like, fine, I can never get away from IT. So, I got in there, and I was director of training and consulting services. 

So, I helped with, we build software, and we had consultants who went and worked with clients, and my job was to make sure they had good training and they had all the products. So, I was director of technology for the consulting arm, eh okay. I didn’t have to build stuff. I was talking to people and saying, so what do you need this product to do? Okay, let me go talk to the people. I got into scrum because my boss came to me one day and said, so I had a very interesting conversation with the IT folks today. I didn’t understand a word they said, not a single word. And they rattled off some things at me and they said, we would like you to provide us a person who will represent you to be part of this new thing we’re doing, because I figured you had the best shot of understanding them since you were from IT. So, you’re volunteered. I’m like, what did you volunteer me for? I don’t know, some rugby thing they’re doing, I didn’t understand. Like, I don’t play rugby. He goes, I don’t know. They said something about rugby and Scrum and ah, you go figure it out. That’s how I got into Scrum. Purely accidental.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  05:05

So, people told you to be a product owner, I’m assuming?

Speaker: Anu Smalley  05:08

He thought he was telling me to be a product owner, but that was a lesson for me how not to implement scrum because I was a scrum master for my team and product owner for my team. It was weird. For the consulting group, I was a scrum master, but I represented the consulting group in IT as a product owner. At that time, I heard it was great. And I struggled with that job, that role that he put me into, and I was like, there’s something not right here. I felt I was failing in everything. And I, you know me, I push myself hard, I’m a perfectionist for myself, like, how can I fail? This is not okay. I cannot be not good at what I’m doing. And I was feeling like I was failing everybody. 

And that’s when I actually met an Agile coach who they brought in. And the Agile coach said; what are you doing? Good Lord, no wonder you’re miserable. You can’t do both those roles. I’m like, this is what they’ve told me. He is the one who actually said, okay read this. I didn’t know scrum guide books, nothing. I was just heads down doing what I was told. He is the one who actually said here read this book, go watch this video and stuff. And I got into it, I’m like, wait a minute, we’re doing this all wrong, this is not my style. And the reason I became a certified scrum trainer, and a coach is to help people like me, so that they don’t go through the pain I went through. I nearly quit my job and said, forget about this agile thing, I’m going to go back to my, you know, traditional approach. 

Because I didn’t understand what the right way to do it or that we needed a mindset shift, it was just doing. And for me, the passion about who I am today is about helping the people like me who heard all these things about, oh, agile means, you know, you can just do magic in two weeks and get a whole project done. You don’t need to do documentation or planning or nothing. You just put people together and do a daily stand up and put in JIRA, by the way, and voila, your project will be done. My passion is to help those people understand what I understood after those conversations with the coach. Go, oh my God, if you do this right, it is so different. So back then I helped that organization make a few changes, but they were stuck. So, I shifted, I went to another company where there was an agile shop. I got into product ownership there, and that was the best thing ever. I realized when I became a product owner that I was born to be working in the product side. Honestly, I was not a fan of being a scrum master. I didn’t like that role too much. I loved being a product owner. And I

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  08:29

Is it like the connection to the customer? Is it the innovation? What draws you in from a product ownership? Yeah.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  08:40

I go back to like, I still remember the first time I actually saw, this is way back when before agile days, right. I was in a financial software company, we used to build software for credit unions. And I bank with a credit union. So, I still remember the moment. I had taken my two daughters to the credit union for some stuff. And we were talking and the teller said, oh, we used and she saw where I worked. And she said, oh, we use your software. And we were doing something with loans, and I said, do you use this product? She goes yeah, yeah, I’m using it right now. And both my girls when their eyes went this big, saying you built that and I told the teller, I said, can you go to this screen and turn the screen. I said that screen I built it. And both my girls went [expression 9:39] and the teller went, oh my God, let me tell you how amazing this product is, blah, blah, blah. That thing of not just building it personally but my team build the product, but it was actually seeing it being used by somebody and seeing the impact it has on them. For me, the product ownership is around that. The connection to the customers to understand what is it that you truly want and building that, and then watching the benefits, watching the impact that has on them. For me, that is good

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  10:20

That is fine. Yeah, it’s like tighter connection too. So maybe to do like tie, like, you recently became a CC and like you’ve been big on coaching, and how do you, you know, look at the connection between coaching and product ownership. Like, you know, a lot of times people are associated with Scrum Master, but coaching is coaching, right.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  10:49

It is, and I think, so if you look at our community, or our guides community, the trainers, and coaches, there are very few of us who have come up the product ownership path. I think majority have been Scrum Masters, and that’s amazing. Because they can work with a team, they can work with the product owners, but to actually have been a product owner, and then to step into being a trainer or coach, I have. I can actually tell clients, here’s an example of how I’ve done this, rather than here’s an example of how I’ve coached it. And I think there is a difference there. And I would love and this is my goal. Every time I do a CSPBO class, I tell every student in there, how can I help you become a certified team coach. We need more product owners in the guides community. Because we talk a lot about Scrum Masters. And you know, everything is about Scrum Masters. And I want people to be more focused on product ownership as well. Because product owners control the garbage in garbage out. You can have the best scrum master and the most amazing team, but if you don’t have an effective PO, you’re not going to get far. Everybody else will have to pick up the slack there.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  12:13

Yeah, no, I mean, you know, something that you just said kind of triggered another thorough question, which is around. You know, I think in general, we need more diversity, and we need more. So maybe I listened to one of your presentations on gender parity, and like when you showed those numbers as far as how many years it’s going to take to get to. So, could we explore that a little bit? Like, let’s first define what is gender parities? Could you first?

Speaker: Anu Smalley  12:48

Yeah. So, there’s a big misconception with parity. Parity is, if you and I have the same job, are we going to be paid the same amount? No difference, because I’m a woman, I get paid less. And no difference because oh, you’re a woman, so you cannot coach this group. I was actually told by an organization that the senior leaders in their organization would be uncomfortable with me coaching them because I’m a woman. That’s where you say there is no gender parity here. People talk about equality. There is a big difference between equality and equity. Equity is what we are going for. Equity is talking about; we are going to remove the systemic things that stop diversity from showing up. There is an image that I show and when I’m talking about gender parity, or diversity in general. 

It’s about you know, if there are three people who are trying to look over a fence, and they’re of different heights, if we say, well, we need to make everyone equal, so, we’re going to give everybody a box to stand on. The shortest person still may not be able to look over the fence. That doesn’t work. You may say, well, how about we give the shorter person a larger thing up? Nobody who is not of the mainstream is looking for a handout. I’m not looking for a handout because I’m a woman. I can stand my own, I can stand my own fate. I got it. I don’t need any favors. I need equal opportunity. So, what do you do to remove that barrier of the fence? Make the fence see through. So, it doesn’t matter how high you are, you can still see across the fence. That’s systemic barriers that we need to remove.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  14:45

And I think that’s a really good example of systemic change when we talked about it. It’s like rethinking the whole picture and saying, what can we do here, not just sticking with the current paradigm and see what we can do.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  14:59

Exactly. It is not about let me give you an extra hand. No. You ask anybody like I know there’s been a lot of talk this past year around racial equity and stuff. And I can tell you like; I’ve talked to people and say I don’t need charity. Yes, I’m a woman of color, but I’m not looking for any favors. And I’ve had people ask me, so how do we help this? Give me your time. Give time, mentor people, find people who do not get the opportunity to be part of this mainstream events and go mentor them, right. I mentor, a group of CST candidates. It’s not all women, it’s not all people of color, I have two white men in there as well. Because this problem cannot be solved just by women. We need to come together to solve this problem collectively. And this group of candidates that I mentoring, I have one ask for that. I give them my time freely. I give them a lot of opportunities. I have one ask. When they become a CST, they’re going to go mentor some other people and people who don’t look like them, who don’t live where they live, bringing in diversity. Same thing for the CTCs and CEC’s. I am mentoring more of them to come in. And I tell every class, I’m happy to mentor anybody, time permitting, right. But if you’re a woman, a woman of color are at least I’ll have a conversation with you. Because if you look at the guide, just the guides community, right, I mean, overall, the guides community 10% are women.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  16:57

And we’re talking about Scrum Alliance guides community, but I think it’s really different. I don’t think it’s that much different anywhere else.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  17:04

No, it’s not. And the people of color are 3%. 

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  17:10

Which is crazy. I mean, like, it’s a shame, but it’s also like, how can we, like it’s still right there in front of us. And yeah, you know. But what’s also concerning what you said in that presentation is like, I don’t know exactly what research you had at the bottom, but like, it’s going to take 54 years for Western Europe.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  17:35

And 170 years for North America.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  17:39

Yeah. And like, I was looking at Eastern Europe and Central Asia. Eastern Europe is where I’m from, but it’s close to 110 years and I’m like, holy crap. Like, you know, in a sense, I could see that. I didn’t, you know, necessarily think of North America right away as that, but it’s like, what can we do, that’s way, way too long. I mean, like, if there’s even if we cut all of this in half, it’s still a lot.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  18:08

It’s still a lot, and this is why. So, people often ask, how can we help? I think the biggest thing is to do a lot of mentoring. So traditionally, when you look at trainers and coaches, right, and you travel for work as well. So, I recently told somebody that in 2019, when we were still in person, I spent 285 nights in hotels, and people went what! My kids are grown up, my husband could work from home, and I’ve had so much support from my husband to say, go follow your dream, you want to do this go, go do it, I’ve got the home. You need that kind of support. And most women because of the children, they go, I can’t leave them home, who is going to deal with this?

 Because we still have those stereotypical roles of men and woman or you know, the gender roles. And we have got to start those conversations where we said no, you don’t need to have, there is no such thing as the woman has to stay home. The man has to be the one who earns the money. Yes, biologically women will have children and stuff. Wish men could have children. That would equal a lot of things. But I think fundamental gender roles have to be looked at again, because I’ve had so many women tell me I cannot do what you’re doing. I can’t travel like that. How can I do what you’re doing without traveling? And I think this also goes to I know there are a bunch of trainers who just stay in their city and work just there. And these are the trainers who’ve been around for a long time, and they’re established. For the newer trainers who are coming in, it’s very hard for them to do that. Name city where there isn’t a trainer.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  20:20

[unclear 20:21], at least United States…

Speaker: Anu Smalley  20:23

At least in the United States, it is the big cities, yeah. If you find a little hole in the whole city, maybe you won’t find a trainer who’s established there. So, it’s hard. So that means you have to travel. And if you’re a coach, before this virtual thing, you know, you had to travel outside. I still remember…

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  20:44

I moved to California just because of that, hey, if you want to coach.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  20:48

Right. But you know, you were able to move your family with you. But imagine if your wife had that opportunity. What would the decision be then? Would it be the same decision?

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  20:59

Even today. And like, you know, you bring up another point. It’s so true. And you know, I joke around when I said, you know, you wish men could give birth. I think, you know, what that brought up to me is just like empathy. We talk about empathy, but like most people, like, how often do you put yourself in somebody else’s shoes or body. To think about like, what are they really thinking, doing, feeling? Like the whole, you know, taking all of their senses, you know. Yeah.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  21:29

You know, when you talk about empathy, right, I remember this one instance, I had a manager, this is years ago. Male manager, nice guy. We had to go travel to a client side. And he had said, I would love for you to come with me Anu, because you know, the client, he’s new into the role. And he said, you know, I’d love for you to come so that there’s continuity, blah, blah, blah. I’m like yeah sure, whatever. Happy to travel. We were in Pennsylvania, we had to travel to Toronto. And I said, okay, but let me know as soon as the decision is made. And he goes, yeah, I think we’ll fly out maybe next Wednesday, and this was the Wednesday the previous week. I’m like, okay, I can do that. And then he said, actually Wednesday won’t work. We’ll probably fly out Thursday morning and fly back Friday night. I’m like, yeah, that works. But it was not confirmed. 

On Monday I was telling him, I’m like, dude, is this confirmed? He goes, yeah well, well, you know. We’ll confirm it today or tomorrow. And I had to tell him, I said, listen to me, you can walk out of your house and your wife will take care of everything. I’m the wife, I’m the mother, I got to take care of is that are there lunches, their food. That means breakfast, lunch and dinner for two days, has to be taken care of. My husband works. My kids go to school, I need to prep stuff. You can’t tell me Wednesday evening; we are flying out tomorrow. I cannot do that. And he looked at me and he went, oh, I never considered that. Exactly. You never considered. There was no empathy there about your situation is going to be different. It was just about, I can just pack my bag and say, Honey, I’ll be back tomorrow. And that’s fine. But it doesn’t work that way for everyone.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  23:29

No. And there’s also like another thing maybe to throw into this. We’ve talked about gender parity, empathy. But the other thing is this unconscious bias, like sometimes we’re doing it intentionally, sometimes it’s just unconscious. And what do you think like, you know, especially when it comes to leadership, like what is the connection between leadership and that unconscious bias?

Speaker: Anu Smalley  23:53

You know, in my leadership classes, I tell them a story about me. I never used to do that before, until I said, you know, unconsciously I’m not being vulnerable, so I need to tell them my own journey, right. We all have unconscious biases, because we have a brain. If you have a brain, you have a bias. Some biases are conscious. Like I know, I don’t like certain things, and I’m going to react in that way. But the unconscious biases are the scariest one because every human being has them, right. And I still remember one of my, I said this to somebody and they said, you have a big unconscious bias towards the younger generation. I’m like, no I don’t.  and they are like yes, you do. And they pointed out something I’d said, and I’m going oh. Because as people in my generation, we have an unconscious bias towards this new generation. I have it, I acknowledge it. Can I do something about it? Most of the time. You know, you do it, I do it with my girls. And I’m like, here you go with your tik tok. That’s my unconscious bias against what they’re using. I have my own things that I use, right. And I think as a leader, it’s important to listen to what people are saying. Because nobody will come and say Miljan, you have an unconscious bias. You know, that’s not how it shows up. People will say things like, you know, that I felt very uncomfortable when you said that. When you hear words like that, you have to pause and go, okay, I made somebody uncomfortable, what did I say? Did I mean to do that? And all goes back to intention versus impact.

Miljan Bajic  25:54

Yeah. And so also, like another thing that you just remind me of, it’s also about awareness, right. How aware am I is a leader, right?

Speaker: Anu Smalley  26:02

100%. Like, when you talk about emotional intelligence, and leadership, the foundation is awareness. I’ve worked with some leaders who, you know they have no self-awareness at all, and you’re like, okay, first, we’re going to start there. I cannot help you be a better leader, until you are aware of the fact that you need to be a better leader. If you think you’re the most awesome leader in the world, there is nothing I can do to help you anyway.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  26:35

Well, that’s the thing. And it comes like to all of this, like, you know, everything that we’ve said, so far, it comes down to the awareness. And I know that you use, I use the Johari window in your classes. And like, it’s interesting, even just using Johari Window to help people understand their blind spots. And it’s so simple, yet a lot of times people go like, oh, wow, you know. Like, this is just, you know, a wakeup call. I just…

Speaker: Anu Smalley  27:07

Exactly. You know, and I used the Johari Window in my one-on-one coaching as well with leaders to help them understand that, yes, your blind spots are important, but it’s the unknown unknown, that you kind of need to look at, because a lot of your unconscious biases stay there.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  27:27

Exactly. That the unknown unknown is all about experience and trying to figure out like, you know, is it really that I don’t know.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  27:37

And, you know, over the last four to five years, I have done a lot of work on self.  I’ve done leadership programs and coaching programs, just to learn more about me, and the impact I have, so that I can reduce, I’m never going to be able to remove all of them. [cross talk] reduce my blind spots and unconscious biases, right. And the other thing with the unconscious bias, and I’ve started doing this more and more is, when I hear unconscious bias coming towards me, I point it out. Like I get this all the time. Your English is really good for an Indian. I’m like, I know, my English is probably better than yours. Because I’ve been speaking English my entire life. And I speak the Queen’s English. It’s probably you know, and telling people that what you just said, that’s bias towards Indians and the way we speak. And they go, oh, I didn’t mean any offence. Again, intention versus impact, right.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  28:49

It is so true. Culture like shapes that too. Sometimes you grow up in that type of culture where it’s acceptable. So, like, you don’t even think about it. You just like kind of on autopilot, right.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  28:59

Exactly. And the number of times, like, you know, I know. Like, I’ve lived in the United States way longer than I’ve ever lived in India. I’ve been an adult in the US. I’ve never lived as an adult in India. And I still get a lot of comments like you’re unlike other Indians. I don’t know how to take that. Is that a compliment? Should I take offense to that? Because India is my birth country. United States is my adopted country. I belong to both, right. Now what? And you understand that, right?

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  29:36

Oh yeah, same. Yeah.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  29:39

[unclear 29:38] Who am I? So, when you started this conversation, you said who is Anu. For me, immediately my mind went, I don’t know. Because who am I? I don’t know. Because am I Indian? Am I American? Am I a coach, am I a trainer? What am I? I don’t know. I think who is Anu is an answer I hope to have before I die. It’s journey towards figuring it out.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  30:06

Yeah. But you know, in a sense, like, you know, if somebody asked me who Anu is, you know, like some of the things that, you know, we’re listeners, we know each other. So, this is not my first time, like some of the speakers or guests. And I think, you know, a lot of who Anu is came through this conversation in the sense that, you know, you care. I remember when I reached out to you, when I needed help, when I needed, you know, somebody to co train with. When others didn’t even respond, you were one of the people, and the way that you just embraced and helped me out. It’s something I’ll never forget, you know. I think some of the stuff that you’re doing in the community that you’ve been doing in the community, is a reflection of who Anu is. And, you know, when I look at Anu, I look at Anu as a really good human being. I don’t look at Anu as, you know, is Anu, it doesn’t even cross my mind as far as those things that you discussed. And maybe again, that’s just, you know, through experience or whatever. And I also can empathize with people that would think you know, otherwise, but it is that.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  31:21

That’s the best compliment you could ever give me. Thank you.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  31:25

I mean, I think that’s all you know, at the end of the day, that’s the least I hope, that’s all we can wish for, right. But maybe to come back to leadership and you know, diversity, like, you know, what can leaders do to encourage diversity in the workplace and also address the unconscious bias.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  31:46

So, diversity, one of the first things I would say is, if you are a senior leader in an organization, we often talk about the glass ceiling. That women and other different diversity, but people who belong to different diversity groups, they can break the glass ceiling. But here’s the thing. If nobody is on the ladder, how are you going to break the ceiling? If you’re a senior leader in an organization, that first rank of management, bring more diverse group of people into management at that first rank of the ladder. The thing we need to fix is the broken rank. Because studies have shown. So, the study I did was the McKinsey Report, the World Economic Forum, all of them have said the same thing. The first level of management that most organizations have, that’s not really diverse. The diversity is, two out of 10 candidates are not white male. If that’s the case, if there are only two out of 10 at the bottom most level, by the time we get to the top, there’s going to be zero, because people fall off, right. So, you got to get more diversity at the line manager level, if you want to build diversity in leadership of your organization. And here’s the thing, this is not about, women need to be there because we are women. Diversity of thought, diversity of styles is important for the existence of a company.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  33:25

Exactly. I was going to say like, there’s so much also, as much as you know, we’ve done research, there’s probably more research and innovation and what part of diversity plays into it. So, it’s almost if you don’t see it morally, that is correct, at least look at it from a business standpoint.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  33:41

Absolutely. And that’s well said. If you don’t see it from a moral ethical point of view, look at it from a business point of view. You are going to get diverse perspectives and thoughts about how do you solve a problem. And you may actually get to a point where you’re going to solve a problem, that will ultimately benefit your organization. And isn’t that what you truly want? Right? So, fix the broken rank. Look at the people you’re mentoring into management. Look at that group. How diverse are there? Well, how was the diversity in that group? And again, it doesn’t have to be, it’s going to be all diversity, people from different diverse cultures. Create a healthy mix. It’s not about, okay, now don’t promote any white man just be diverse women and people of color. You need both. The problem of the world cannot be solved by one group. So, for me…

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  34:40

Don’t swing the pendulum too much.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  34:43

Exactly. Then go to the opposite direction, right. If you do that, you are going to learn about all these people, which will in turn help you uncover your blind spots and show you what your unconscious biases are. Because we don’t interact with people that much people don’t say, well, that was not right to say. So, your unconscious biases and blind spots are never uncovered. Because you don’t deal with the people with whom you have the unconscious bias. So, open up your groups. Make your first line manager group more diverse and see what happens in your organization. Wait for the magic.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  35:27

And take action. Like I’ve been bringing this up because it was unconscious bias that I had. So, like when I first started this podcast, I don’t know now three, four months ago, you know. It was mostly like, who would I have a drink with, you know, at the bar and just talking, you know. What came to mind is mostly guys and mostly white guys, right. And then as I started doing more and more, I’m like, well look at, you know, look at my [unclear 35:53], look at the people that I’m talking to you. And then it came to like, well, you know, one thing is to acknowledge it. But the other thing is to actually do something about it, right. And, you know, it was like, sometimes, like we need another push or just make it more actionable. Talking about it is not enough, I guess.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  36:19

Exactly. And this is what you know, I’ve been telling people, it’s the micro dos. It’s small. You don’t have to say, oh, I am going to do this, you don’t have to do that. Do one little thing. What’s a micro do that you can actually take action on that will make a difference? It doesn’t have to change the world. It has to change the world for one person. What can you do? Find a small thing. Can you mentor somebody? Can you talk to somebody? Can you help somebody? Can you guide somebody into a role, a position, a class, whatever it is? Micro dos is what we want to focus on. This is the small things. It’s like a snowball effect. If 100 of us do one small little thing, that snowball is going to be big rather than just me doing 100 things.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  37:18

Yeah. I mean, that’s so true. And I think we just have to kind of nudge each other and make sure that you know, at least we understand that again it goes back to those experiences. Going back to Johari, the unknown [unclear 37:32], the only way that you can start realizing is by going into unknown unknown. And I think you know, something that you can probably relate to, like coming to United States. I was old enough to remember that unknown unknown. And it was scary to think about it before we came here. But like, as I started immersing myself in a new culture in the new environment, I started realizing things, for instance, like, hey, I hate people of different religion. Why do I do that? Like here in United States, it’s, you know, it’s a lot less common. So, like, it started breaking my mental models and things that I had. And that was mostly due to the experiences. It’s not like something that came up, it’s like, you know, by actually being exposed.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  38:23

Right. You know, and something you say, like I do not have very clear memories of when I moved. I was I was an adult; I was 21. But my experiences in India, where as a teenager as a child, I just turned 21, or 22, I think when I came here. So, I was so excited about coming here. And I don’t think I had formed all my biases in India yet. I was still a child and I had the biases that are passed down in family. But I don’t think I had formed enough of my own biases. And I think that happened once I came here. And now when I go back to visit India, those biases show up very differently because I now react in India, like somebody from here would do. Because my biases are formed here, not like there. It’s weird. It’s so weird. So, when I traveled to India with my husband, who is American, our reactions were so different. And he was more relaxed about stuff and I’m like, oh my God. He reacted to things just so differently, and it was just so interesting to see. And that’s what actually made me go, why am I behaving so neurotically?

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  40:03

Well, I think I find myself in a similar situation. And in that instance, I feel like I’m less empathizing with people than somebody else that is not exposed. Almost like you’re judging them in a way or just because you’re familiar and you’re from there. Rather than, you know, somebody that’s not, just, you know, accept them for what they are. Like, you know, your aunt’s doing weird stuff that typically, your aunt won’t do here. Like shoving, you know, stuffs, you know, on your guest’s plate. Like eat more and… 

Speaker: Anu Smalley  40:38

Exactly. And that’s like, I’m going why are you reacting to that, and my husband’s going, this is weird. I’m like, really the things you find weird, I don’t find weird. And he goes, things you find weird, I don’t find weird. And it’s just interesting to be able to see, from their point of view. Like I took our oldest daughter when she just turned 20, I think. We took her to India for the first time. It was fascinating to see the country through her eyes. She was still at that age where her biases have not formed. Not the her own, she has family biases, yes. And it was so fascinating to see the country of my birth through her eyes for the first time. And I’m going, wow, is that what you see when you see that? How interesting. I see something so different, and I react differently. And for me, that was the beginning of the work I’ve tried to do on myself saying, okay, that means I still have work to do on me. And that’s why I said, I think it’s a constant journey to figure out how I’m going to get to be who I want to be.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  42:00

And something that I recently spoke with Mike spade, and I read his book Agile transformation, like something that resonated with me, which he says, like, you know, as far as the mindset and how we shape our conscience is like, the stories that we tell ourselves. And it’s like, you know, if I’m stuck in a story that I tell myself, it’s not till I change that story to see it. And those are those biases, those are those, you know, things so like, understanding the story that we’re telling ourselves. Because everybody’s telling a different story, even though it’s very interesting. So maybe to finish it off here, I thought maybe, I don’t know about giving some tips to people. And I think you will be a good person to give some facilitation tips and coaching tips. So, what would you say to somebody that might be listening, because I think facilitation and coaching, those are the type of skills that doesn’t matter what role you’re playing, you can benefit or what your position is, you can benefit from those skills. So maybe let’s start with coaching, what coaching tips would you give to people.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  43:07

For me, whether it’s coaching or facilitation, the biggest thing is be open to listening to what people are saying. With the whole active listening thing, I know everybody goes, oh, yeah, yeah, active listening. But how often do you practice active listening? I often tell people, people hear the word active listening, and they understand what it means, but how do you actually practice it? And if so, what is your tip to do active listening? And they go while I just listened, I’m like, okay, and as you’re listening, what’s going on here? And they go, yeah, I’m thinking about stuff, then you’re not actively listening. Waiting to respond is not the same as listening. So how can you stop waiting to respond?

One of the things I do is a technique called voice mirroring. I learned this years ago, and I’m sure other people have heard of this, too. When people are talking to me, and I’m trying to do active listening, what you’re saying, I repeat in my head. As I repeat your words, in my head, limited opportunities for my head to go, oh, I remember the time when that happened to me, oh, that so not right, you know. There are limited opportunities for me to go back to my experiences or to form judgments, because I’m repeating the words in my head. And what that also does is when you stop talking, it allows me to go okay, he said all of these things, and then allows me to focus on that and then respond. So active listening, what is your technique for active listening. Figure it out, whatever works for you.

 One of the coaches that I work with, she must have a pencil in her hand. And this is what she has to keep doing while somebody is talking. Her fingers have to be moving on a pen or she keeps toiling or doing something. Because when she’s not doing this, her mind is thinking other things and wandering, right? So that’s my biggest step. Figure out, what is it that allows you to focus on the person in front of you, and their words, just to listen, not to judge, not to respond, nothing. And the other thing people often say is, oh, yeah, active listening and powerful questions. I’ll ask a bunch of powerful questions. Yeah, but you can’t plan those powerful questions ahead of time. Then it’s not coaching, and it’s not facilitation. So, if you’re actively listening, when the person stops, trust your intuition to say, based on what I’ve just processed in my head, what is the right question to ask. So active listening, trust your intuition to ask the powerful question. Do not randomly ask any all-powerful question. Because it’s a powerful question. It doesn’t work that way. I’ve seen that often. I mean, I used to do that. When I first started coaching, I would have a list of powerful questions and rattle off something, and then go, that didn’t land well. Why didn’t it land well? Because it was not the appropriate question. And if you truly listen to the person in front of you, and then trust your intuition, the right question will pop in your mind and then ask that.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  46:31

It’s almost like and I did the same thing. As far as, and maybe it’s not a bad thing to start with. But I think, you know, once I understood that it’s about expanding the space for the person, it’s about helping them figure things out. From that perspective, that listening, asking questions. Listening is key, obviously, but the questions are contextualized, to where the conversation and what they’re trying to do, rather than just you know. 

Speaker: Anu Smalley  46:59

You know, and the powerful questions that you’re asking, should be asked to create clarity. For the person who’s talking not for you. If you never understand what they say, it doesn’t matter. It only matters that the person in front of you gets clarity. So, your questions should help that person get clarity, right. One of the things I repeat often is your questions should get the person speaking, explore what’s happening, and not explain away the things that they’ve not done.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  47:36

Exactly. Well, I just maybe give example. Like, I went to that recently, where like, I was stuck, or I’m still stuck. I keep telling people and I keep exposing it because I want to get unstuck, I’m finishing my book. But I had a writing coach who had nothing. Hasn’t read my book, doesn’t know anything about what we do. And she was trying to help me, in a sense, coach me through like, how do I get unstuck. So, she was helping me explore, like, what’s going to get me back into writing. And it was all me exploring ideas about you know, do I wake up at five. What has worked for me? What am I going to, you know, do to start writing again? She was helping me figure out how do I go back. 

Speaker: Anu Smalley  48:25

Yeah. So that’s a great example, right. Somebody who doesn’t know the content is just focusing on helping you figure out how to approach the content. A lot of us when we do Agile coaching, scrum coaching, leadership coaching, we also have some content authority, because we’ve been in the Agile space for so long. So self-management is key as well.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  48:48

Using that instance, it’s very hard not to go into mentoring.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  48:52

Yeah. Oh, let me tell you what I did. No, no, no. So, self-awareness that, oh, I’m stepping into mentoring, and then self-managing yourself to go, step back, step away. And I don’t care what book you read. I don’t care when you finish your book. My goal is to help you figure out why is it important for you to finish your book? What’s important about that? And get to there and not go to Miljan, what’s chapter nine all about? Ah, so then we’re going to get stuck in content and not move forward. There we go to explain, not explorer.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  49:30

Exactly. I think that the other thing that comes up is like, you know, a lot of times people are looking for mentoring. But we go in as coaches so like being clear and explicit about, you know, the differences in what the person that you’re working with, is looking for. Because you can’t coach somebody that doesn’t want to be coached, I think a lot of times that can backfire if you don’t fully understand that.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  49:55

Agreed. A lot of times I’ll ask people, they say can I get you as a coach? I’m like, are you looking for a coach or mentor. And the normal things I get, what’s the difference? I’m like, Aha. So, you want to mentor. You think you want a coach, alright. Let me explain to you what’s the difference. And then I asked them, now what do you want, a coach or a mentor? They go, just a mentor, thank you. I’m like alright then. That’s the difference.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  50:24

That is, it. And it helps clarify, because I don’t know, if you’ve been in situations, I’ve been in situation where I got myself, kind of not necessarily into trouble, but like, you know, people are questioning the value that you’re bringing, because they’re assuming you’re going to mentor rather than coach.

Speaker: Anu Smalley  50:41

You know, that again. So, if you’re going to do both, you have to work with the person in front of you. And trust your gut, your intuition to say, I think you need a little bit mentoring here, can I mentor you, and step into that mentoring stance other than the coaching stance, depending on the person in front of you, I often tell my coaching clients, there’ll be times when I’ll step into mentoring, and I’ll tell you. But I need to sense that they need a little bit more guidance, rather than just figuring stuff out for themselves. So, you have to figure out what stance you’re getting into. And it’s not about what you want to do. It has to be the stance you’re stepping into, to help the person in front of you. 

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  51:28

That’s a really good point. They’re in kind of in the driver’s seat, then just that awareness to like, that you are switching those stances, and doing it intentionally. 

Speaker: Anu Smalley  51:40

Intentionally switching and calling it out and saying, I’m doing this so that we can help you. It’s not about let me tell you all the wonderful things I’ve done in my life. That doesn’t help anyone.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  51:54

Yeah, that’s awesome. I think that those are the type of things that especially those that are, you know, diving into that space of coaching and mentoring that they might find. We’re finishing up here, and as always, I tell people crazy how an hour fly by. Is there anything that you would like to leave us with, a message or?

Speaker: Anu Smalley  52:18

You know, an older student, by older, I mean, somebody I’d worked with years ago, reminded me recently of something I told her, and I’ve been bringing that back up again. As trainers and coaches, our job is many times even as a trainer, my job is to get you some knowledge. My job is to impart knowledge. Your job then is to take that knowledge and make it wisdom. Because I don’t have your context, to make it wisdom for you. I cannot give you wisdom, I can give you knowledge. So, the example I told the student and she brought that up to me, I’m like, oh, my God, that was a good example, is, my job is to give you knowledge, so I can teach you that tomato is a fruit, that’s knowledge. Wisdom is you have to figure out that you cannot put tomato in a fruit salad. 

So, knowledge is that tomato is a fruit, wisdom is that tomato doesn’t belong in a fruit salad. I can give you knowledge, you are the only person who can figure it out that wisdom, and contextualize it. So as coaches and trainers, our job is to guide, to provide knowledge, to create a container where you can grow and figure out what that wisdom means to you. Now, you could say hey, I like tomato in a fruit salad. Somebody else would say ew, tomato in fruit salad. Again, wisdom is different, it’s contextualized. So, if you’re looking to become a guide, or you’re coming to one of the guides, remember, we can give you knowledge. We cannot walk the walk for you. We can only get you started. So, if you’re going to become a guide, remember that as well. Don’t tell people what to put in their fruit salad. They got to figure that stuff out for themselves.