Michael Vizdos

Transcript

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  00:34

Who is Michael Vizdos?

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  00:37

Ah, I’m just a regular guy. 

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  00:42

That’s what everybody says, right?

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  00:46

It really is, I’ve spent 30 years in the industry, working for big companies, small companies, done a couple of startups and I’ve been pretty much on my own since 2001. I’m working on a lot of companies and organizations and military teams. How do you get better using this agile stuff? And Agile is not the outcome. Really, it delivers outcome that are important to the organization.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  01:20

How did you get into this agile space? What was your… because everybody has their own kind of journey of how… they usually say it’s accidental, it’s not… what was your journey?

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  01:32

Yeah, for me, I spent almost the first 10 or 12 years of my career, working for other companies, and being super frustrated about not being able to deliver good results. Not even good results consistently, just good results. And I joked around with a friend of mine way back in the day of…  that if there was some kind of methodology or framework that we could just say, let’s iterate on this and get better. That was right around the time, Alastair was  working with IBM and figuring out the Crystal Method. And I worked at the time for IBM well actually it was EDS, doing contract work on this thing called LS two, some operating system from IBM. And during that time, I really came to appreciate teamwork, and did a couple startups. And then right at about 2001 I got involved with some of the early Agile adopters and started following country labor [02:44]. He delivered this Scrum master class. I was one of the really early adopters in that class. And as I was doing that, I was writing this book on this thing called the Enterprise unified process with Scott Ambler. 

And it was a big, heavy software development stuff. Soon as it got published, I was like, Wow, that’s good. But now what? So during that time, I’d gotten certified by Ken and really started working with him and Jeff Suther and others early on, to get classes started, trying to figure out what is this Scrum Alliance thing and here we are. 20 years later.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  03:37

That’s been an interesting journey. Maybe we can come back to that, you’ve contributed, a lot you’ve mentored a lot of people at Scrum Alliance. So that might be something that come back but I interviewed Scott and I think over the years his perspective is changed. What are your thoughts on the current DA?

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  04:00

It’s good stuff. Scott’s always been good at pushing back against the organized stuff. It was good to see actually that, when the PMI bought him out for the disciplined Agile delivery. It’s fun now watching Scott there, Allen and Shaley, Shaley is…

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  04:28

I’ve got an interview with him.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  04:30

Yeah, definitely. He’d be a good person to interview. And we’ve known each other for a long time and pushed back on a lot of ideas. 

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  04:41

It seems like everybody like you, so far, I almost feel like, I’ve interviewed close to 50 people like 47 I think this is my 47th interview, like four months. And there’s a common pattern where, I think people are realizing that these prescriptive approaches as lightweight as frameworks they could be, they’re still prescriptive and that there’s still more content, we need more contextualize things in our organization, especially when we start scaling, or descaling. So that’s one thing that’s really… when I spoke with Scott, when I spoke with David Anderson with all of these top leaders that represent different maybe paths or have a common message, which is, in a sense, we got to go back to the basics, we got to go back and understand these patterns and principles, before we start doing things. And even Dean, I spoke with Dean laughing, has his own perspective. But underneath all of that he understands the fundamentals and what needs to happen. It’s up to people to fall with it, to what is the saying that goes, its still a bull, right? 

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  06:02

Exactly. Yeah. I’ve really tried to stay focused on a lot of the basics. Because I find that going back to the basic a lot is a super helpful, and whether it’s Scrum, Kanban, whatever kind of framework or methodology you want to use, it’s important to focus on the people and then your actions.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  06:27

Good. When you look at today and reflect back. what is important? What are you currently working on? What’s important to you right now? When you look at…?

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  06:38

Yep, so today, it’s definitely staying with training. I really only do public training, maybe once a month. I find that that’s a good way to get people introduced to the topic, but, training a bunch of people, and then setting them back into the environment that they’re in, is not really super impactful. They need support after. So I’ve been mentoring, I’ve got the Agile mentoring group with Ron Jeffries, and I host that. And that’s just an experiment where Ron and I host the Slack community and talk to people. And with a lot of slack, people come in and out. And it’s great to see different perspectives from everyone around the world that’s in that group. And then I’m also spending a lot of time right now with schools, and education. And it’s important to me to help, really, this is generational change. And the stuff that we do is stuff basically that’s taught in kindergarten, play nice with others say Please, and Thank You, don’t be ‘mmm’ about everything. 

And it’s been a really fun journey. Since about 2013. I got involved with schools, from elementary up through universities, and I’ve been spending a lot of time lately too, with the administration level. So at the district level of, how do you use Scrum, at the organization level, not even deep down into the schools, with the classrooms. And the Scrum Alliance is really starting to back a. thing called Cal K 12. Where it’s going to be certification for teachers to help give teachers tools to flip the classroom without really making huge major changes. Because teachers in the world, they’ve got tons and tons of stuff to do. Adding another thing on top of it is not going to help.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  09:04

So that too, so I’ve been teaching like in university here. And it’s interesting, even just like you said, it’s surprising that this is not, being pushed more in schools and I think, Scrum Alliance could definitely play  even bigger role in this and not just Scrum Alliance, everybody because you have kids coming out of school, and now it’s a little bit different. I think there’s more and more, but don’t even know some of these approaches, or they’re looking for a job is like Scrum what or Agile what? 

And maybe it’s not the point is not Agile or Scrum but this way of working and understanding and also from like you said, playing nice from people side, how do we better work together and how do we better understand each other needs? How do we empathize better with others, what other things… when it comes to schools like your work there? What are some of the things that are different maybe from what you see in the typical corporate environment?

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  10:12

One of the things that I’m still adjusting to is in education, there is still an openness to share, and encouragement to share. It, it changes when you start bringing money into the conversation, and competition. There is no single place where there’s this aha, I invented it, and it’s mine. Everything that we’ve done, any kind of huge inventions that have been made has been really on innovation, not like some light bulb going off.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  10:58

It is interesting, some of the ways like that ego…, I think as soon as you throw in the money in your in corporate environment, and do you have organizational structure, especially that reinforces that it becomes very difficult to innovate, because it’s less of a collaborative effort. It’s more like, “I gotta protect my fifth”. And what I’m incentivized where I don’t know if in schools and level work that administrative level or, but it is interesting, and just how that plays out. So that’s couple of questions you want to ask me, so we thought for me we’ll play back and forth. For Michael

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  11:50

So for you, you’re almost 50 episodes in, what’s different today versus day one for you, the first podcast that you did?

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  12:04

I don’t know if there’s much difference besides…, I just keep enjoying these conversations. My first one was with Daniel Mesic, I believe I reached out to him and Jean, and, I was like, “Guys, I have an idea for this podcast, would you be willing, I want to just pilot and see , I want to do three, four of these. If it works, I’ll continue doing it if it doesn’t.” And it was just right from the get go, I don’t know, because I was maybe comfortable with them. It was really just I enjoy we having conversation here. It’s like I miss these types of conversations. And the only way to get time with people seems now is this way. So it was also a nice way to say, “hey, do you have an hour to chit chat about topics we might be interested.” 

So I don’t know if there is anything different, but I’m starting to see patterns. As I’m talking to people, people are saying things differently, but they’re saying the same things, in a sense of what they think, for instance, where we had the what are some of the challenges that we’re facing their own kind of journeys, and some of the biases to and some of the.., one of the things that I may be, so this is definitely something so I just the diversity, inclusion, that’s something that I didn’t think about, for instance, at the beginning, I was just, I had a bunch of white guys in my mind, because those are the people that I know, those are the people in our community that are considered leaders. 

And I started thinking, look at my first 10 interviews, it’s all middle-aged white guys. And I’m like, that was something that just,  presented itself to me, I’m like  “how do I add more diversity,” but also, not just do it for sake of, hey, I want to diverse, I’m just going to interview anybody just to add to the mix. But what is some of the criteria? Or what are the topics that we’d like to discuss? So that’s definitely something now that you asked that I think about as far as, how do I add different voices? And maybe a couple other things that as I did this, like I started thinking about, well, if I’m interviewing top leaders, that’s great, right? 

But how do I create a platform for people that are doing some great stuff, and get them a little bit more exposed to our community and highlight some of the stuff that did. So that’s the different part that, I want to do that I didn’t think of when I first started. And the third thing is Doing these, like Ask Me Anything session. So I did one with Roman Pilcher and then Mesic, I’m going ask Mike Cohen if he wants to do one. And just like these are where I’m not asking the questions that are asking the questions I’m just facilitating. So those are some of the things that come to mind.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  15:19

So for people that are listening or watching this, for the diversity part, what kind of requests would you have for maybe even the people watching or listening to help you get more diverse? Maybe people involved.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  15:39

So I think anything that would shed maybe different light, I feel another thing that I’m seeing is, which goes back to like those same patterns, like maybe diversity and topics, diversity in perspectives. There’s something to be said about having people disagree with some of the common. So I think, that held the differences in perspectives, which you just made me think about, another thing that I could do is hold the baits and facilitate those. But just in general, for instance, one thing that I just reached out to Nan then on Taiwan, he was a monk, the became Scrum trainer. And that’s a great example of the…, I don’t know anybody that was a monk. And that’s done. Scrum. He’s tried to do Scrum in cooking and different ways. And I love…, recently, what he’s been doing to entertain people in training. I don’t know if you seen but he’s doing some brilliant.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  16:55

Things growing up about John and Jane things. Yeah. DJing. 

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  17:03

I love that. And I think another thing that I’ve been thinking about is, trainers that do fun stuff in class. So maybe compiling trainers, I’ve been doing like this piece and I wanted to this piece of remembering kind of like people. And one person that I got a chance to meet. In Dublin, I think you were there to Mike Beadle. And my first interaction with him was very positive in the sense that, he I didn’t know who it was, I was sitting next to him. And he was just the nicest guy trying to get into and then when I realized who it was, I’m like, oh, at least, you know, just so I know, people have done certain things to remember and keep his ideas. And so I’ve been interviewing people, just to kind of add a little bit more to that. So those types of kind of …, maybe deviating a little bit from typically what I’ve started and trying to add diversity in that way, I spoke with [name not clear] [18:20], and talk to her about what she’s doing in Africa and Nigeria. And those are ideas I didn’t think about when I first started, but…

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  18:34

It’s awesome. So zoom forward to, Episode 99, or 100. What’s going to be different?

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  18:46

I think,  going back to what I just said that there is more diversity that there is, and I want to reflect low, but so I’m going to take mostly pause for the next couple of months is when I spent time in Croatia and Montenegro, Serbia and Bosnia, that whole former Yugoslavia and maybe take that time to reflect a little bit, but I’m hoping that I can add little bit more to that diversity. And also, I haven’t gotten or asked for any feedback on these, or for an Agilist or somebody that considers them Agilist. I haven’t really gotten a lot of feedback besides just generic feedback that people tell me and but wasn’t one proactive. So we’ll see. I don’t know what the 100.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  19:37

Maybe, don’t some of that into the new flow of things will be interesting. So when you come back, you’ll be all recharged and ready to go. You’re working on a book, right?

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  19:56

So yes, I’m working on a book and I tell people the reason that I started the podcast is not write. I have about 40,000 words written nine chapters. It’s really based on, it’s called wicked leadership based on wicked problems, how do we lead in a complex environment where we’re dealing a lot of times with wicked problems? So I’m writing a book, I was hoping to be done by now. But so, I…, you wrote a book, I don’t know, maybe you can give me advice. When you have a writer’s block, and you just can’t get back into rhythm, what do you do?

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  20:36

Yeah, just keep writing, write every day, even if it’s garbage, write it, you can always delete it. The book that Scott and I wrote, with one more co-author, it was a long process. And one of the things I learned with writing that one, and this was back before, I mean, this was 2004 2005, when we were, writing it and creating it. It our copy editor, we had to send it out for copy, we got physical FedExed printed versions that we had to go back and do. And, I definitely came to love and respect copy editors, and the humility of just pay, this is, this is what’s needed. The, and the important thing is, you’re not going to ever get rich off of a book, maybe a couple of the early authors, you know, got some big bang for the buck on that. But really, what a book does allow you to do is get some more exposure into the into the world. And then you can lean back into that if you need to.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  21:59

Yeah, for me, it was never, it’s just like, some of these ideas that have I’m also writing in a book is more like a novel or has stories so I tried to hide things from growing up in a war or maybe inexperience with the clients. So it has a lot of stories, intertwined in it, it’s pretty much that. And it’s also helped me to have writing coaches just to help me when I’m stuck in the…, one of the challenges last few years, it’s been California. And last year, we pretty much Airbnb during the COVID, so it was just like moving. And I keep making excuses, but I agree, one of the things that I know. And this is maybe for people listening to if they’re considering writing a book, I definitely resonated when you said write everyday, that’s the probably if I could give people one advice, I was waking up at  4:30, start writing a five to seven was my time uninterrupted. And it was, it was during that time that I made the most progress.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  23:12

Absolutely. And it’s very different than either doing a podcast or writing blogs too. And I’m seeing a lot of people recast blogs into books. And I’m like, they’re not sure

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  23:24

I’ve have been thinking about something like that, too. I don’t know, if it’s a blog, or what I’m going to do, but the fact is that people want different mediums. So for instance, the way that this podcast…, mostly video podcasts, I still haven’t put it like a regular podcast, which I have to in audio, just only. But there’s so much good stuff that people have said and tips. So I could figure out how to extract that and just make it available in a different format for people. Because not everybody is going to go through every single talk or discussion that I had. And I’m the only one that has listened to all of this or been part of all of this and I know there’s so much good stuff. So I got to figure out…, I’ve been thinking about possibly some type of book or paper, whatever, like my takeaways, but…

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  24:21

And even just getting out and maybe helping to keep in that writing mode is just blog regularly about the topic like with implementing Scrum with the chicken and pig cartoons, I write for almost six or seven years, every single week. Right? A new comic strip came out and I wrote consistently and really over the past three or four years, what I’ve done is shifted from blogging to sending emails, and every Saturday morning at implementing Scrum you’ll get people that are subscribed there will get an email from me about implementing Scrum in the real world. And it’s really what I’m what I’m seeing in the real world working with teams today. And how do you get better implementing Scrum? Using things like the Scrum guide. I’ve recorded that that Scrum guide audio book for since like 2013 version. And…

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  25:28

I always noted that, by the way,

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  25:31

That move sounds

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  25:34

Especially, it’s sometimes easier. And I’m trying to depict stuff. And even when I’m laying the bed, I feel like I have more focus and less distraction. Right? So I always [inaudible]. [25:50]

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  25:52

Yep. And in this latest version, I created an interactive Scrum guide too now. So if you go online, and instead of, if you’re like, “Oh, what is this event or activity,” you can click it, it will bring you to that next spot in the Scrum guide. I’m seeing a lot of people using that both in training and then back with their teams now, too, so it’s important.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  26:14

Yeah, no, it is. I mean, it’s, it just gave me an idea, in a sense, what I haven’t thought about but , I can write my takeaways from each of the interviews and send out an email and people can watch it, but they also get, and then I can also put that, I mean, you said you’re writing a blog, I can put in an email, but there’s also no reason to put it like as a blog, too. So that’s something that I haven’t thought about. So thank you, Mike.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  26:43

Yeah, there’s an unending Idea Factory, I think, between both of us, we could just spin out ideas left and right, all day, every day. And one of the things that’s important, for writing the book is you writing it. When Iwas under contract to do the book back in 2005, one of the things I learned is, I think nine out of the 10 people that are under contract. Don’t finish the book.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  27:12

Even though you have that pressure, and it’s still Yeah…, I get stuck in this, it’s really the format, I know what I want to say. But it’s the structure, and it just the longer seems like the longer that I put it away, the longer I also…, and I feel like, things are marinating, and my ideas are getting better. So it’s also…, there’s no sense of urgency like, oh, if I write it this year, next year, like, I know that I have something, but…, so it’s just I keep making excuses at the end of the day, but even it doesn’t matter, I think it goes back to just write every day, you can throw it away, but even half an hour, like any muscle, if you train it more than you train it…, I want to get your thoughts on co-creation and pairing because you’ve done that, I’m assuming throughout your life, just looking at you having previous discussions with you, and looking at what you’re doing, you’re always, looking to help others and co-create what are… when you reflect on that,  maybe who are some of the people that or maybe ways that you kind of think about co-creating or helping or I don’t know, what goes through your head when you want to do something because it seems like your tendency is a lot of times to collaborate. And even when I’ve done co-trainings or whatever, it just seems like it I work better when I work with somebody else, and it can feed off their thought process and they can feed off my thought process.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  28:58

Now, the important thing really is for you and whoever is co-creating with you are aligned. And it’s really like doing a dance together. And it’s important that you stay in alignment, and when you’re not be able to walk away from it, and be okay. Right? it does ebb and flow, we’re idea factories, we love coming up with new stuff. And we learn new things, right? 

And when we learn new things, sometimes our perspective does change. So I’ve been I’ve been fortunate enough to really have awesome conversations with people like you and others in the industry over the years where we’ve been able to collaborate and sometimes that works. Sometimes they’re spectacular failures. And in my mind, the spectacular failures look like this mushroom cloud of a waste. Here’s what really is “Mm mmmm.”  the world is still spinning. So it’s important to be able to also have fun while you’re doing it. Right. If it gets into a slog, it’s probably time to tap out and maybe do something else do something else.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  30:18

Right? Yeah, definitely, I think that were two things that really resonated like that things evolve. And I’ve had a couple of startups where I started with my friends or colleagues, and just things along and we don’t have, just we’ve learned or have changed perspectives. And in some instances has been not necessarily bad but just we see things differently, and they just walk away sometimes been just like, “hey, let me support you with this part that you’re doing” and, I think it’s maturing and getting older. There’s so much you have to go into any type of collaboration, co-creation with knowing that things will evolve. 

But the most important thing is while, we have fun, something good probably, or there’s a really good chance that something good can come out of this. What have you, I mean, you’ve done also you’ve supported over the years Scrum Alliance in so many different ways. Maybe just to touch on Scrum Alliance, because a lot of times, we always tend to look at the negative side or it’s easy to bitch about this bitch about that. As you look at Scrum Alliance over the years, what are you proud of? What are you happy? 

Because I remember, I think you Mike Blier, Jim York and I were in Boston for those face to face, it was a small, little room and small group of people. And you guys were not necessarily very happy with the current leadership. But still, I think we’re trying to empathize with what’s going on. So reflecting back not just in that time, but just since you’ve been part of Scrum Alliance. How have you seen Scrum Alliance grow? And what do you think of the current state where Scrum Alliance is?

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  32:15

The current leadership is doing an awesome job over the past few years, and it’s really trying to maintain focus, to help really the community and people grow. When the Scrum Alliance first started, right, it was a for profit company. Right? And it was basically, Cain and maybe Mike and some others and Jeff, right. And when the trainer community was, less than 20 people, right, we were having the same kind of conversations that we’re having today with a community of hundreds. It’s good to see that people are bringing some new techniques and sharing the results with the Scrum Alliance. The Scrum Alliance right now, I think he’s still going through a “what are we going to be when we grow up?” Because they’ve got a ton of money sitting in the bank Right, as a nonprofit, and to serve a community and then what is it? Are they a certification machine? Are they really about coaching? Or what is it? So it’ll be it’ll be fun to watch how this starts to evolve.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  33:44

Yeah, I mean, if you look at it, and the what I would like to see for satellites, is that, you organization for impact, which they are what you said, you helping in schools, bring some of these ideas, helping teachers, nonprofits, what they’ve been doing also is, I just spoke with Kiera Harada, from Japan and going into some of these areas, and maybe, it’s not just Scrum. Obviously, I think it’s limited a little bit. And when we say Scrum Alliance, but just l helping people do better work and be happier, I think that’s something they have an opportunity to do that. And as a community, we have opportunity to be part of that and almost ride that wave. Because a lot of times, I feel like, I’ve hit a lottery with being part of this group, and we tend to get at each other. 

We tend to, but we have opportunity to make an impact. Some people would wish to have an opportunity that we do as trainers and coaches. And I feel sometimes they will probably do a better job. Maybe not because we’re all humans, but it’s just it’s I feel privileged to be part of this community and I think we all have responsibility and opportunity to make much bigger impact. And like you said, maybe when we grow up, or we’re slowly growing up, that will happen. So I don’t know if you should share the same views. But that’s kind of like what I’m thinking about what I think about Scrum Alliance and how and what the future may hold.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  35:24

And really, I’m now working with people who want to do this right. It’s the people who are just you know, up against and fighting or raging against the machine, or don’t want to change you know what, have fun, right? Continue doing whatever you’re doing. Let me know how that goes. And the people that are saying, Wow, this thing can make a change. And this is possible. I’m loving working with those groups of people all around the world.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  35:56

Yeah, and something that I want to come back maybe to but which is related to Scrum Alliance students, some of these programs, in a sense, Scrum Alliance is known, and a lot of times people see it as 02 Day certification, but not many people know about the other training opportunities, coaching opportunities, other certifications that require a lot more time, and I really enjoy, like you said, following up and helping people develop because after that two day training, which is most of the classes are CSM, CSPO for most people. But that follow up and helping people grow, because those two days are obviously not enough. And a lot of times people don’t have the support in their organizations that they need. Do you think we’ll focus more and more on that type of service where it’s not just transactional, hey, you know, come take the class, but more of a follow up, and truly trying to help people because we all know, what it takes to succeed and to learn and two days is by far just enough to get you interested in familiar but it’s nowhere close to what people need.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  37:11

And, and it’s important to also realize the Scrum Alliance is not going to make that change, it’s us as a community to have to make the change. Right, for me, it’s very non transactional for me. And I’ve been training since right at about early 2006. And over those 15 years, I’m still in contact with people that I trained over 15 years ago, now, some of them now are like, I’m capping out, I’m retiring, which I’m getting a lot, I’m seeing a lot more of that. And most of the business that I do in training, and consulting is almost all word of mouth. I’m not the cheapest person out there, I’m not out there competing on, do my $295, CSM, I’ve kept my pricing pretty consistent. And I’m probably getting smaller classes. But again, it’s people that want to be there. I really, I actually try to tell people who are there just for the certification or check the box go somewhere else. Because it’s the experience that I again, try to create is not the one off transaction. But we’re in it, you’ve bought access to not only me, but a community of people that I’ve trained, and worked with and consulted with over the years around the world.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  38:48

And I’ve been messing around with that. Because I’ve explored both, in a sense, and I can tell you that, for me when it feels more or less transactional, if I’m working with a partner, and it’s all about just sell, run the class, right? I also feel I’m less motivated, especially if there’s a lot of people in there and I feel like I could do much better job in helping them if it was like, you know, 12, 15, 20 people at max rather than 30. And it kind of has a impact on me how I train, how I feel, I contributed to their growth. And it’s making me think, like he’s just said, what am I really trying to do here? Is it make more money, is it have a bigger impact? Because I think, deep down what I want is that impact and know that the hate, you’re paying, but you’re getting, what I think is right, I’m not trying to maximize just a just on my end and it’s a constant battle for me because for whatever reason, I guess, as a human and also being, I’m still fairly new to this whole training business because I come from a more of a coaching and consulting. And it’s a different model than being a CST. 

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  40:19

Absolutely, and recognizing that a lot of the people that come to the initial trainings come for very different reasons. So again, it’s, a lot of times, does the date work, does the pricing work, used to be the location work? That’s gone now Right. So a lot of people I would say, that are searching don’t really care who it is that’s delivering. So my focus on that is, really get people who want to do this. Again, it’s not doesn’t always happen, right? I’ll get people in the class that are like, “my boss is forcing me to be here.” And that’s a rough slog for two days. And well it’s pretty much two days of guided discussions, whether it’s in person or online, people use different technique learn and train.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  41:29

Yeah, it’s another thing that I’ve been thinking about is mix of…, from typical CSM. Two day class where I’ve done like advanced Scrum master classes, I spread them over, one month, and those I love because there’s more interaction, both, what we’re used to be, did couple of physical, which were great. But even zoom, this was before COVID. But now on Zoom, it’s really nice just to be able to continue that connection and people to be able to go back, apply stuff, talk to them throughout the week, and then come back and, and there’s different, a feeling to it. And you can tell the…, what people get out of those. Same thing with like CSP, and now Cal classes, I’m finding, I don’t know, if you teach those, but I’m finding that having that mix to as a trainer is really helpful, rather than just doing one type of classes. So that’s another thing that is a trainer I’m considering, what is that mix? How do I motivate myself and feel I’m contributing? Not to my bottom line, but to everybody else’s bottom line as well.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  42:55

And we are running businesses, and it’s important to understand that right? And it’s a different mindset. It doesn’t mean we have to chase every shiny object that’s out there. Right. The Scrum Alliance offers a lot of different badges and certifications. Intentionally, I am not chasing a lot of them. I’m staying super focused on what is it that I’m trying to do? Okay, so for me, it’s, again, really important to go deep somewhere and really understand a domain or industry or sector really well,

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  43:33

Well, questions? What else you want to ask me? Because I’ve been…

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  43:46

So what can what can I do to help you get the book out? Haha.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  43:50

You can read it. I have…

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  43:52

So I read like the first day you dropped it, right? Yeah.  hey, I want some feedback. I was Okay, I could see this is definitely the Point. 001. Yeah, I would love to take a look at all this look like and, and give you some feedback if that’s what you’d like. And because I read a lot, I read at least one or two books a week.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  44:23

I used to do that. Not currently as but yeah, maybe like it’s I don’t know, I think you were one of the first ones I asked. It’s been at least a year and I’ve added a lot more to it. But maybe even just nudged me a little bit. Just you know, maybe coach me through it, when you think of me Have you said no, how’s that book or what could you have anything to send me whatever it is to get me back into I don’t know if it’s going to help or not, but I definitely need the little nudging I guess.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  44:59

And Well, while you’re out and about on maybe hitting the reset button, one of the great books that I recommend to writers is Stephen King on writing.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  45:13

I had read that and yeah, that’s it. I do know that I live about an hour away from so it’s, it’s a great, 

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  45:24

A great reminder right again, and when I say write every day, if you get a chance to get Mike Cohn on here that he’s just a rock star in that.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  45:37

Well, I was asking, I got Mike and he was saying the same thing, write everyday. He’s like he was even playing with Pomodoro. And just fry for half an hour. And then…, so and I’ve asked, a lot of people have written books and same message. And again, I just got a refocus, and hopefully this reset. Oh, but I’m just taking a little longer break will help with that. But I think I know, in my head is just, the actual knowing or getting back into rhythm, there’s something to be said about getting back into the habit of writing. So…

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  46:17

I mean, even at conferences with Mike Cohn over the years, or things that I’ve worked with him on, it’s, he does his keynotes. He does his talks, and then he goes back to the room. And early on, and I want to talk to him about that. I’m like, why aren’t you out there, you networking with people and I’m writing. I have a job. And he’s super focused on that. And he’s built an incredible organization of some Rockstar trainers and in products that have been super useful to people.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  46:55

Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I think he should be inspiration to all of us, in a sense, even, starting the Scrum Alliance. And one of the things that he said, that was really funny and resonated, was, you have to be just about right amount of lazy, where you’re not trying to do everything and yeah, and there’s so much to be said about that, where, think about what you’re where you focus, what you just said he could have done a network, done all that, but he knows what were his focuses? So, that’s a good advice. And yeah, anything they can do to help me.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  47:47

Yeah. So here we are at like, episode, but almost 50, so 47 48, whatever it is. Here’s my offer. If this podcast slash, videos, make it to 100 Bring you back. And let’s like, Will rewatch this episode, almost like we could we could almost do a watch party, you go. Are we thinking back?

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  48:14

That will be fun, actually, that’s a great idea. And just reflect on it. And I agree, let’s…, I don’t know when that 100 is going be. But yeah, let’s do that. I think that will be fun. Or even if you just give me an idea, like even inviting everybody who wants to show up that I’ve interviewed, and I don’t know, maybe just opening it up. It might be too many people, but maybe it’ll only show up. But that’s a great idea.

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  48:46

Maybe did I for 50? Yeah, maybe yeah, let’s do that. Again, ideas we got we got so many ideas,

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  48:54

Putting them into actions, right and deciding which ideas, you want to explore. What is maybe something that I haven’t asked you or maybe something that you want to highlight? As we’re kind of nearing here? Is there anything that you want to share anything that you want to ask me?

Speaker: Michael Vizdos  49:14

I’m really for the listeners, and people watching this. You’ve watched this conversation, it’s kind of has gone in and out. It’s almost we’re sitting in a bar talking. That’s what take conversations like this. Pick out one thing and then apply it on a daily basis. If you’ve got ideas, put them in action, or if you need help, like if you’re stuck or you need an introduction, contact me.