Kiro Harada

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  00:48

Who is Kiro Harada?

Kiro Harada  00:52

I am Kiro Harada. So I’m an Agile coach, and doing Scrum training. But I have a background of chemical engineering. And after getting the job of a product development, and then doing some QA, I realized that the software is a key about improving my career, I switched my career to the software in 2000. The interesting thing is that, in chemical engineering department in 1990s, we had to do everything. So I did a little bit Computational Chemistry, but if you are in chemical engineering, you get a workstation. If you get the mechanical engineering, you have all the machines installed with that. In chemical engineering, okay, we have chemical reactors, both, we have to open a computer, build a network, and then apply patches for software, we have to do everything. So Chemical engineering is kind of good place to learn various kinds of things at the same time. Then I kind of continue that way until right now. So I’m doing Agile coaching as a main profession but as you can see the mess behind, I do a lot of things.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  02:21

Great. And maybe can you elaborate a little bit on, you know, your experiences in hardware and your background in hardware, because I think it’s really interesting as far as your experience in applying scrum in hardware, and just how you got into this agile?

Kiro Harada  02:42

So since I was in chemical engineering, and then I was so much interested in mechanical engineering, I really like to create some things that work with a physical interaction with that. And then there’s a mechanical engineering way to create some working machines. But once it becomes complicated, it suddenly becomes exponentially difficult to implement it. And then we get to endure small machines that call to a microprocessor. Oh, it’s a good way. The more since we have small electronics that can be controlled by a computer, it’s much, much easier to implement some complex move just by hardware with software. So I’m pretty much interested with it. And then probably one of the reason I started working manufacturing, this was a product development, but that’s kind of in some movement happens with a working place. So yeah, I love working that way. Thanks.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  03:58

So maybe, you know, I want to talk to you and see your perspective like Scrum and Agile methods have their roots in Japan, and in what ways has that impacted you, like what’s the perspective from somebody from Japan on Scrum and Agile, and do you see that Scrum and Agile have roots in Japan or is your perspective different on that?

Kiro Harada  04:24

Yeah, so, I do not think there is a specific origin of agile but I have to say that some of the manufacturer in Japan has their own way very similar, which is known as the agile right now. So what I understand is that, when the Japanese industry created a good industrial quality and standard, we didn’t have much money to implement the various kinds of instruments, machines, lines, whatever. Then, we didn’t have much resources so the only way we could do is, okay, collect all the people find the best way. So instead of dividing work for each person from the beginning point we get together, and then we think and work together, what is the best way to work out with minimum resources. And then that created the creativity that within our limited resources, what could be achieved. And then we have the better interaction with various people, with various background skills. And then that’s a secret, but why Agile and Scrum works.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  05:52

So essentially, get a bunch of smart people in a room that are willing to work with each other and just let them figure things out.

Kiro Harada  06:00

With my experience, actually, so good thing in working here is that I could have a direct interaction with the people actually who was in the development space. I do not call smart people, I do call crazy people.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  06:17

So get a bunch of crazy people together, right? Smart and crazy, courageously maybe.

Kiro Harada  06:22

One other thing is that the since they do not have their own testing environment for them to test their idea, or they get together around the midnight at the factory, they change the factory, all the land experiment, and then in the morning, they get back the factory in the original space, so they can manufacture the ordinary manufacturing the next morning, and then they get back sleep. That’s the kind of crazy things I heard.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  06:51

What else I mean, last time, you and I spoke, you talked about the impact and the, you know, the pressure after the World War II, and Japan to deliver. Could you maybe elaborate and talk about some of that you share with me like, you know how this Kaizen way of working, goes back to Demin Tsi Ono [unclear word 7:21], and how the world war II or results of world war II kind of force Japanese to embrace that Kaizen. 

Kiro Harada  07:29

And so after the World War Two, in the case of the after the war appeals, the older industry in Japan get into recession. So the old industry didn’t have much resources. Now we do have people work on it, but we didn’t have much machines with it. But the thing is that after the World War Two, the Deming came to Japan, they brought us the status, quality control and the way to improve the process on the quality and productivity. Since we didn’t have much resource, but we did have time, and then we have a good motivation to create the industry back. So to get the history back, there was the Korean War in place, and then we had a great need, a great industrial point to create trucks or other military vehicles, and then that creates a huge demand for vehicles, that train the industry a lot.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  08:40

So that created essentially platform for a lot of this stuff that was… [crosstalk 8:46]

Kiro Harada  08:46

Yeah, so it’s a really limited. Okay, we have time, but the deadline is near. So the first truck was designed in nine month.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  08:59

Wow. That is pretty cool. So maybe to expand on that, you know, I want to talk about your experience Scrum, in manufacturing. Could you speak maybe about Scrum in manufacturing? Like, what are some of the good, the bad, the ugly sides of Scrum and manufacturing?

Kiro Harada  09:22

Yeah, so actually just Scrum in manufacturing in Japan is, we are now getting back how we worked with Scrum. We need to talk a little bit about how the manufacturing practices blow to outside Japan in early 1980s. So since after the Japan industry came back to a very high productivity and high quality thing, that people are curious about it, and then they sent researchers and then the first famous book about Lean manufacturing is that machine that will change the world, so they thought it was the machine. So the little trick is that they didn’t disclose how actually overnight with it, just shows and adjusting, okay, the manufacturer repeatable process of manufacturing and then they call it the secret of high productivity, which is really not. And then people are really to track to the point, okay, it’s a pull system. Okay. Now pull system is for adjusting only, it is not for planning period. So the idea of putting a manufacturing practice in software is actually the initial idea was wrong, so we need to think more about how we design the manufacturing or how we design the product part of it in that sense, so there is no pure pull system. So it’s always a mixture of push system and pull system. So we need to have a similar batch processing, and then we do a continuous one piece roll that adjusts itself to liberalize the manufacturing. So we need a good mixture of it. So then Scrum is a good point. Scrum has a sprint and sprint running, so is the batch running. And then let the team decide how to deliver it, but they are so stronger in color is to minimize the lead time for each product backlog item. So it’s a good simulation in a designing way, or how we create a highly productive and high quality process. So I think Scrum is pretty much all about covering push and pull system.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  12:05

And could you maybe elaborate on that, because that’s really interesting, in a sense of thinking about it, sometimes we’re going to need a batch process, and that, you know, as far as the value stream that might be needed. And then sometimes, you know, when we look at things that might be more of a single flow. Could you give us maybe an example on, like, you know, in your experience manufacturing, like, you know, how do you leverage Scrum and other frameworks like Kanban? Or like, what does it look like? Because I’m assuming that it’s a custom framework in organizations that you’re not probably doing pure Scrum. Is that true or…?

Kiro Harada  12:47

Okay, so there’s no such thing like pure Scrum. Scrum is framework, so it’s just a framework, there’s nothing inside yet. So scrum part is that how we design very straightforward aspirin.[unclear phrase 13:04] So since manufacturing, so we keep creating the same product over for a certain period of time, so we have a same virus and stay in place. So then we measure it, we optimize that, so we create the flow with that. So the manufacturing, okay, I don’t call it a pretty easy, it still has a lot of adjustment and tweaks to make that flow, but as always creating a product or should I say designing the product, okay, we design the exact same product, this sprint again, you won’t never get paid so you have to make a new one. But even though you create a completely new one, every time in the sprint, your productivity or your result is not predictable. So we create a kind of various stream template every sprint, but we change a little bit every sprint and then also the work that fall on the various stream chances a little bit. So then, we allow to really automate everything. So if there’s a static vary string, we can update, okay, we can automate and then we can ask the machine to do it, but very stream or designing a scrum is that we’re updating various streams, we’re changing that work every time and also, we’re updating our people, “okay, we know better? Better still we like to have a metrics major inspect and adapt cycle. So itself is almost in a manufacturing is the same thing. So then Scrum is kind of say we are expanding our inspect, major and learn and update kind of process more on designing parts or the manufacturing.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  15:12

That is interesting, because I mentioned earlier like I spoke with Joe Justice recently and he was working at Tesla, he was describing how, you know, he’s like this truly works. And it’s the, you know, almost like scrum on steroids in the sense of how they work and how they get stuff done and how they continuously iterate through things. What are some of the things that you’re seeing currently, that are applied in manufacturing? That are impressing you? And with the companies that you work, is there anything that impresses you like, wow, this is, you know, completely new way of working, or this is…?

Kiro Harada  16:06

So actually, there are several clients working on it, but in a manufacturing, so in the year is very strong, I cannot talk with these things, but they’re actually utilizing the way how to improve the whole process. The one example I can share is that I’m working with a small venture audio device company. They’re creating audio mixers for theatres. So multi-channel, high resolution, low latency one. But since, you know, the current audio has become the higher resolution audio, which has a much higher sampling rate, we used to implement with software but software fluctuation or latency make it very difficult for the multi-channel like 40 Channel mixer, to have the delays fix with it. So they wanted to create a hardware sound processing but the hardware is very hard. So what I did is as they actually implemented the older core logic with FPGA field programmable gate array, but they created a FPGA design by TDD, it’s more like Callaway TDD. So instead of creating the circuit or design gatally [unclear word 17:31], they create a logic analyzer or functional generator with FPGA cell, wow, and then create the input signal, audio signal, and then they start implementing target. So the interesting thing is that they also sit the analyzer in production. So they log a lot of information with it. Once in the LR in a field, they actually collect the log, and then they can replay the same thing. So, even though they’re creating hardware, they’re fully utilizing the software techniques to make the quality better. So I can say, okay, I will show you that link of the product after this.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  18:21

Yeah, please and I’ll include it in the link. But that’s interesting, because it’s like, similar, like how a lot of these patterns, you know, we’re adopting software development, this is very standard pattern in the sense like, you know, test early and often move testing to the, you know, validate early, create some feedback loops, and you’re just applying it in that context. But it’s exact same thing that we do in the software development, you know, probably in some ways, it comes back from manufacturing. So it’s just interesting as Scrum is becoming more and more popular, how some of these patterns not in manufacturing, but just in other industries will be applied and contextualized.

Kiro Harada  19:06

Yeah, so I think, you know, the Apollo does, called jig in manufacturing. So Jig is a support to create the work of staying in the good position. So, when you create a wing or when you create something that keep a strict angle, we create some supporting device first and then create the work and make sure we do the uses in variation of the manufacturing process. So then, we call TDD but we are actually thinks it’s a JigDD, it is a jig, helping device that to create a product to be in correct angle, correct position, but the software helped us or we can create the Jig that is intelligent. So when we are designing it, we have to make sure our work is very well aligned with Jig. But our intelligent Jig is a little bit noisy, “hey hey”, [inaudible 20:11] you’re well aligned enough so, fix it. So, that helps a lot about work to designing. So, we are creating automated helper spreading, designing the process, designing the product, design hardware, to help us design better product by reducing the cognitive load to take care of the minor…

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  20:36

Exactly, which is like concept in, I guess Agile too is out, automate whatever you can, whatever makes sense. So you can, like you said, minimize that cognitive Lobell. So just in general, like don’t worry about that, if it can be automated, it’s going to save you time, it’s going to help you go faster long term.

Kiro Harada  20:59

So, yeah, I think I find it very much fun. 

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  21:03

Yeah, it is. You talked about the next generation electric Kanban system manufacturing, could you maybe talk about what that is? The next generation electric Kanban system?

Kiro Harada  21:15

So, what I call a Kanban system in manufacturing not software version. So Kanban is about the messaging system. So we are actually telling, “Oh, we use that part, so please, supply us with that part”. And then the Kanban is sent back with the truck, and then few days or sometime few hours later, your part is delivered. But what the purpose of Kanban? So Kanban is actually not on order, it’s too slow. So we really wanted to synchronize all processes. So all the process in the same tack time, your tack time is at that how your conductor will control the whole length of manufacturing. But if the older processes, keeping the same tact, it is very effective, and then minimize working in progress, right. So what you want to do is synchronize processes. And then…

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  22:42

Synchronize the value stream, I’m assuming because you’re looking at the old hours.

Kiro Harada  22:46

And then Kanban was necessary evil since all process cannot be synchronized, it is sometimes geographically away with it. And then geographical location difference was not really a problem since it takes time to deliver part, so it’s okay to deliver a Kanban back to the supplier. But we can have a better way to synchronize, we can have a better rhythm so that we can synchronize each other. So one of the key is that Kanban is the only signals from the user to supplier, so it only can accelerate. There’s no way to slow down. So that result in a huge loss in the car manufacturing in the Lehman shock period, since they can accelerate but they cannot slow down with the Kanban.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  23:51

So how do you slow it down? I mean, so if you can accelerate, and what you’re really saying is that you can like when your supplier sends you apart, you can’t really slow it down?

Kiro Harada  24:08

Yeah, so since Kanban is pull system so okay, the user using it and there’s a signal to the supplier, that is a signal to the supplier and then all the supply chains are connected. Okay when the situation like Lehman shock happened, okay, the cost of manufacturing, the Kanban is already there so all the parts…

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  24:32

Start coming in.

Kiro Harada  24:34

That made a huge fluctuation. So pull system can pull into accelerate, but there’s the other part that is necessary too, how to slow down. With the next time on [unclear 24:49] system actually, I do not know what is happening in Kanban right now but they’re thinking about designing how to share the info “How to slow down, and still synchronize all the process to each other”.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  25:05

Yeah, I mean, just thinking about it but I’m assuming this would go back to contracting and to the suppliers and communication and saying like, “hey, you know, what happens? If we have this type of an event, how do we communicate? And what type of policy do we need in place in order to, you know, stop sending us these parts because we no longer or we can’t, you’re sending out much faster rate than what we can actually take. And that might be creating the bottlenecks or costing more or whatever it is, right”?

Kiro Harada  25:38

So in, okay, in some huge company manufacturing case, the load fluctuation with adjustment with Kanban is only 5% per month. So if you cannot actually do more than 5%, if you cannot slow down more than 5% each month, so you have to at least one month before, situations a little more complicated. So okay, the Kanban system is for adjustments, so they cannot take care about 20%c, 30% changes. So it’s a responsibility of the push part of the system. So it’s a mixture.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  26:21

Yeah, that is interesting. You know, I told you like, you know, my background is mostly in software development, and, you know, started working with more clients that are in manufacturing, or they have parts during manufacturing, it’s been very interesting. So maybe to shift gears a little bit, I wanted to talk to you about just the importance, I guess, or the why is it important for professionals in Japan to be introduced to Scrum? And is there like, you know, in the West, mostly, I guess it’s everywhere, it’s not just here in United States, but people are crazy about certifications, they’re crazy about Scrum is becoming, you know, so there are good and bad, of the certifications, but why do you think is important for professionals in Japan to be introduced to Scrum?

Kiro Harada  27:24

So, about 30, okay, or more than 30 years ago, so in 1980s, our way, the Japanese way of working shook the world. Actually, we changed the way of work 35 years ago. So then it was very different from what the other country sold is a normal way to there, and then we could do it. But as you know, after the so called bubble economy collapses, we are more about becoming small improvement, or should I say cost cutting, working, impressed for the last 20-30 years. So even though we create a very new crazy way of working 35 years ago, but we lost how we did it. And then after a long run, the new way, Okay, like scrum, the way of working all the way back to Japan again. So it’s a good thing.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  28:34

So it’s really about going back to the roots and understanding the essence of what the moment that was really started in Japan.

Kiro Harada  28:47

Yeah. I do not call its roots. But it’s older…

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  28:54

Well, I think a lot of people and maybe it’s just the end, Jeff Sutherland, who has specifically, he talks about it, and, you know, the impact that you know, Tekyi Ono [unclear 29:10] and the two professors, you know, Harvard, Nonaka and I forget the gentleman’s name.

Kiro Harada  29:19

Yes, [inaudible 29:22]

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  29:23

So, you know, they had a huge impact, and he’s and I think damning obviously, and, you know, probably without Toyota and without what, you know, DPS and a lot of this stuff, probably some of the stuff wouldn’t be where it is or maybe would have shaped it differently. But so that’s I think, why a lot of people consider that a lot of the roots or what was you know, big push came with lean and came from Japan.

Kiro Harada  29:57

Yeah, because it’s a good thing, I feel good. So, definitely that way. But the key part is that we keep learning, we keep studying other people, we keep studying what other people are doing. So the key here is that before the war, Toyota engineers visited the United States and visited all the factory for Ford, Chrysler, GM, and they learned a lot about the, they didn’t have much resource to create exactly same manufacturing line, and then suppose they stopped by a supermarket. And then they saw a supermarket putting glossaries other on it. Oh, that’s the idea. Wherever you deliver like, a car is like a shopping cart in a supermarket and party delivered on time to it. So it will become much very efficient with minimum and still have high production. So they learned a lot from the car manufacturer in the US but also from the supermarket.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  31:11

Yeah, it’s a good pull system and lean. What about why scrum Alliance, so we knew you’re associated with Scrum Alliance, and, you know, Scrum Alliance is the oldest, most recognized nonprofit organization. And I think you know, in the United States, Scrum Alliance dominates in the sense of certifications, all that but in other countries it doesn’t so like you know, people a lot of times associate themselves with other certification bodies. Why did you decide to, maybe you probably belong to others, I’m not sure but you’ve kind of decided to go down the CST path and trainer path and associate yourself with Scrum Alliance, so why scrum Alliance?

Kiro Harada  32:03

So I don’t know to feel bad about other certifications, but the reason I stayed in a CST path is that Scrum Alliance training is very diverse. So the training provided by the trainer are very different to each other as you try to capture Scrum, which is good thing. So in that sense, I’d like to have other certification body training so we like to capture the core part of Scrum to make it better. But at the same time, it’s a good thing that the certification body is not the training body, so training body made a various way of doing it, still the certification body a good certification, so we are known to either Yeah, traditional meeting on competing, but we are trying to better way of sharing Scrum idea and then we are learning from each other. So if there is no single, those scrum association, kind of saying, “okay, you have to teach this, this blah, blah, blah”, probably Scrum will lose their momentum.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  33:28

Exactly. And that’s kind of what attracted me too because I think that same thing of like, you know, there’s a certification body but there’s, you know, trainers, our community. So when I design my training, when you design your training, it’s different than we have seen learning objectives, but Kiro can design his own way. And, you know, I think there’s also my perspective around like, you know, nonprofit versus for profit, a lot of these organizations are for profit and not necessarily for impact organizations. So it’s interesting. You are one of the few first CSTR which CST Regional I believe, right. Well, what was your experience of becoming a CSTR? What was that process?

Kiro Harada  34:27

So it’s exactly the same as CST thing but since the way okay,  providing training pretty much not really same or running with the waves of how CST is. Okay, so then, I believe they decided to give it a try. So since I think you have experiments, okay, introducing scrum to a large enterprise, and Scrum into small startup, do you do the same way? I do not think so. So then my experience is that if you bring a scrum to large enterprise, can you do develop a little software with that such loose process? That’s a response. And then when you bring your scrum to startup, do we need such a lot of meetings just to develop software? So it’s a completely different reaction to it. So we need to inspect and adapt, okay, inspect and adapt is a key part of it with the size of the company, or the history context of the company. But at the same time, it applies to culture, I don’t want to use a culture like term, but the context of each country, context of each group has different background. And then it may not be a good way to have a standardized way of introducing Scrum, won’t work there. So it’s the same thing, as I said, about a variety of Scrum trainers. So it’s better to have a different way of introducing scrum on how we see how Scrum is implemented. So if we work, having diversity is a good, risk mitigating way to growing Scrum. Oh, yeah, I think so. It’s a kind of experiments scrum alliance is doing right now.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  36:37

Yeah. And I think it’s great because I do like coming from a different country coming from a different culture, I like the challenge that I have, for instance, if I like I’ve done trainings in the in Serbia, Croatia, in that former Balkans area, and I’ve never delivered the training in Serbo-Croatian, like I’ve always delivered in English, even though I’m from that country, I wouldn’t be like for me, like in people, I can tell. Like, if I was delivering it in Serbo-Croatian, the experience would be different. So it’s same thing like here for trainers going to Japan, training in Japanese or in English, where if people had an option for a native language and native, like somebody that has more context about what’s going on, I think for those people that are looking for that type of experience would be like you said, option, diversity, like, you know, and I think a lot of times it’s a richer experience.

Kiro Harada  37:37

Yes. So interesting part is that, I think the when you introduce retrospectives for when introducing Scrum, it’s a new concept, right. But in Japan, we learn how to do retrospective in kindergarten. I mean, so yeah. Okay. Small kids are collected together so how old are they? So it’s a kind of the context, different from it. And then we actually forget how we do it. Why not? You did in Kindergarten, you can still do the same and the working process as well. So what went wrong today? What went well today? So it’s a kind of interaction to retrospectives here. But yeah, they are different countries, so there’s a different way of introducing it.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  38:38

Yeah. I think it’s a I mean, we’ll see it’s a pilot and what are you seeing as benefits of the CSTR program? Like what have you gained from becoming a CSTR? What are the benefits of CSTR?

Kiro Harada  38:54

Yeah, not sure so I can start, okay. I can start providing a CSM classes here without having inviting CSTs on site. So yeah, I really love to invite CST on site and teaching together but because of the this COVID-19 situation, it is a little bit hard to invite people and then remote contexts, zoom context a little bit harder to share context. Lately like to resume working inviting CSTs including you, coming to Japan to teach together and then share the finding

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  39:36

I would love to. I don’t know about teach but I would love to visit maybe do one class but I’ve never been to Japan and I will…

Kiro Harada  39:44

But then meanwhile so we can continue providing certified trainings here in native longus. Actually capture some of the people who are not really keen on having English classes. So we are certainly expanding acknowledgement of the scrum in the market. And also there are some good scrum practitioners here, and then who are not really eager to apply for CST because of language barriers. So yeah, still the process involves some English, but we can start encouraging people. Okay. So there may be or otherwise, even though your English is not fluent enough to get through our English interviews in English, so there should be a way, of course…

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  40:46

What was your experience? I mean, like my experience, I mean, like for those of you I think some of the listeners might be familiar with the Certified Scrum trainer process, some of you may not, but it’s a multiyear, very long process that requires a lot of things including persistence. And from your perspective, what message do you have for somebody that is thinking about going that path? Like reflecting back maybe doing a little retrospective here, what would you do differently? What would you do the same when it came to the CSTR program?

Kiro Harada  41:35

Okay, so one of the key retrospect that I have is that I could have started earlier. Always start early. So your career length is limited, so if you have something very interesting out something that will benefit for you, start early, that is the key. So it’s a kind of diverse experiments. So there’s a lot of people and then with diverse backgrounds, diverse ideas, diverse way of doing it, so appreciate it, it’s fun. 

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  42:17

And the application itself, I mean, like, I would say, you know, it took at least for both CST and CC, for me, the application is long and tedious, and I remember spending hours. So I tell usually, when people ask me, like, you know, how should I start preparing? What are the next steps? I usually tell them go review the application, understand start taking iterative and incremental approach to filling out your application. 

Kiro Harada  42:48

So but at the same time, so I need a little proposal about how to improve it. So since it’s a clear symptom that there are multiple peels here. So there must be peels here is that the symptom is keep adding things, not removing. Since it’s a structure of adding new criteria, saying and then it is not really straightforward, and then a vary stream optimized way of it. It is perfectly okay to go awry, find newline. But we can make it a little bit easier to get into the gate. Okay, the key or some of the, okay, martial arts training, whatever is it’s pretty much made it easier to get in the gate and then you pass it out. And then, so if it becomes a part of the applicants professional development, it’d be good.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  44:03

Yeah, that’s a really interesting concept. Because I think if you could get people even to start filling out or getting somebody to help them with the application or something, that’s something for scrum alliance to think about, in a sense of how do we get people to start filling out application, start kind of getting in the process, maybe even getting another CST or somebody to help them with that initial startup, might get more people to kind of engage in this process because yeah.

Kiro Harada  44:37

So since Scrum is very diverse. So I have never seen the exact same scrum implementation in two different teams. So I really like to encourage people how people implemented Scrum, what kind of tricks, tips they have tried, so that the other people can try it, and then actually describing how they did it, it’s really helped to develop their career too. So, I actually mentioned that I was working in scrum patterns working group. So we are collecting, good working way doing it, and then to write document about it so that the other people can try with it. So working software is better, but document can survive history. The people with no contact, try new equipment, new air walking, so I think it will help change our way of work as well.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  45:52

Great, so maybe the last question here, a little fun question. If you could have dinner with two people that are alive, who would you choose? And why?

Kiro Harada  46:07

So okay, so if the people are alive, I just go for it. Okay, let’s go for dinner. And then the contrary, I’m thinking of, do you know robot Heinlein, science fiction writer?

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  46:23

No.

Kiro Harada  46:27

It’s the door to the summer, or the other stranger in a strange run. It’s a science fiction writer. He wrote about the society in the future. So even though he died when I was at high school, so I really wanted to meet him. But I literally talk with him that after he observed the College Station, how he imagined the future. So they have a good foundation. Yeah, all the same reason I like to see Isaac Asimov who was a science fiction writer as well. So who are good imaginary, that actually somewhat accurately predict the future right now? What kind of thing happening?

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  47:22

What’s going on in their heads as they… [crosstalk 47:28]

Kiro Harada  47:29

So unfortunately, we cannot go to the moon right now. We have imagined when I was a kid, but okay, this smartphone changed the way so we can talk everywhere, we can see everywhere, we can send pictures, Oh, is that change a lot. So but we will see the change a lot and I’m looking forward to it.

Speaker: Miljan Bajic  47:57

Yeah, no, I think yeah, it is cool. And it’s interesting, you know, that some people have that foresight, or maybe, you know, just guessing, but just knowing I agree, knowing like their thought process and how they come up with those ideas would be really interesting. Is there anything else that I didn’t know to ask you? But if you were me, you’re like, “oh, yeah, I would have asked him this question”. What was something like that you worked on? Or maybe something that I should ask you but I just didn’t ask.

Kiro Harada  48:47

I will talk about my okay, April fool project I did a few years ago, which is a lazy manifesto. Yeah, it’s a joke site for the April thing, but I’m seriously joking. So I really like to have all the team to become creative, innovative and crazy how to new things. And key part is how they can become lazy. And then how to finish the ordinary drudgery work in a controlled manner. And then some people okay, especially some teams in here, probably, they work so hard. They try to finish all the tasks by hand with perfect quality, and then they’re too tired to do something crazy. So be lazy or try to okay not to do the task, probably it won’t hurt anything. So then you have some slack time, you have some free time, you have some free resources, and then there are some crazy thoughts around where something new happens. So I really like to, all the team have the such kind of slack or flee time to do something crazy.